Q&A with a a top tier medical school top of her class graduate

I have been fortunate enough to have grown up with some really great people who have gone on to become succesful in many different areas of expertise but one of the biggest "over achievers" is my friend Dr. Heather Webb who was accepted even though she decided to apply very late to Washington University St. Louis (currently ranked 3rd best medical school in the country by US News World Report).  She went on to graduate near the very top of her class got accepted to a very competitive residency and is now finishing up her training in Wisconsin.  

The other day I had the opportunity to take a few minutes of Dr. Webb's time to get some questions answered that I thought might not only benefit me but all who are curious about medical school.  

Here it is:

"First of all, dont worry about not having an advisor or official premed program.  I didn't decide until last minute (very last minute) to even apply to med school so I didn't do the premed program at BYU and only went to talk to an advisor once, who basically told me I had waited too long and there wasn't much he could do for me. Not very helpful.

So I may also be the blind leading the blind here since I just sort of fumbled around on my own and didn't really know what I was doing-- but hey, that should give you hope, right?  Things still turned out okay. 

Anyway, to answer some of your questions

Q:In your experience what types of things were medical schools looking at and what percentage of importance would you rate them?)Is it possible to mitigate a poor GPA or MCAT and if so How?

A:First of all, it seemed like the interviewers were interested in more than just GPA and MCAT scores.  They also want to know you're a well-rounded person and a decent human being who can get along and work well with people.  (You'd be surprised at how many really smart people are lacking in the social skills arena... or maybe that's not so surprising). 

 Extracurricular activities, especially if it involved some sort of service or leadership experience are also a good thing.  And missions and church callings are definintely in that category since not many people will have done that kind of thing.

Q:How does the whole match system work? (I understand that the students

rank the program and the program ranks the students and how the list

works I guess my question is more is about how the residency program

knows which students are interested and how they rate their potential

candidates).

A:First of all I wouldn't really worry about this yet.  It's not something you really have to think about until your third year of med school and once you've decided what area you want to go into.  Each area does things a little bit differently so it's better to talk to people who have gone through the match in your area. For example, radiology and surgery or medicine matches work pretty differently-- not the actual computer match itself, but all the behind the scenes stuff.  Different fields are going to value different things as well.  Your Boards scores will matter a lot in some fields and not so much in others, for example.  But if you are definitely interested in a particular program, its a good idea to let the program director know, via phone, email, or in person, whatever.

 As far as DO's, I've worked with plenty here and in my internship in Virginia. I don't know if they felt they had a harder time getting in than others or not, but they're here and doign well.  Being a graduate of a foreign med school can make it difficult to get into some of the more competitive residencies, but as long as you're not set on being a brain surgeon at Harvard (and I know some-- they seem miserable : ) ), then I would say it's less of a disadvantage than most people think.  I have a cousin who did the first two years of med school in the Caribbean, then was able to transfer to Cornell and is now doing a residency at George Washington.  If you want I can try to track him down and get more info about his experience.

 Most of the foreign medical grads I've seen who had trouble with liscensing, credentialing, etc. was due to citizenship issues, (visas, work permits, etc.) and language barriers.  I don't think US citizens typically have any problems there.  You do have to take the US Boards exams to be accepted into a US residency, but a lot of foreign schools take them already or you could always take them on your own.

Q: Is there any other advice you would would have for us about

preparing, getting into and being successful in medical school?

 A: Well, first I would say there's no magic formula for any of those things (which is, by the way, a direct quote from your dad about 8 years ago.  Dang, I'm getting old.)

 Since it's hard to know where you fit in the pool of people trying to get into med school, I think it's always a good idea to apply to a wide range of places; some you don't think you have a chance of getting into, some you have a decent shot, and some that would not be your first choice (or second or third) but that you could live with if you had to.

 Success in med school really comes down to how hard you work, I think.  Most of the material isn't any harder than what you're already studying.  The difference is that there is a ton of it and it comes at you really fast.  So you just have to put the time in. But that being said, if you do put the time in, there's no reason you can't do well.  I definitely had classes at BYU that were harder than anything I had in med school.

 On to your more personal questions.  Feel free to post anything I write, by the way.

 Like I said, I was a very last minute applicant.  I actually missed the April MCAT and had to take it in August, which meant that I was sending out all my applications before I even got my scores back.  Not the best way to do things.  So I basically applied to a ginormous (I have no idea how to spell that) range of schools and hoped I would get in somewhere.  By the way, although I did get into one of the "top schools in the country" whatever that means, I also got rejected by some relatively mediocre schools, so don't get discouraged.  You never know. (Basically I was so clueless at the time that I didn't know how good a school it was or I probably wouldn't have applied.)

So, you're atleast ahead of where I was.

 And if there is a place that you get an interview and are really interested with, make sure you talk with either someone you interviewed with or the Dean of Admissions and let them know you're VERY interested.  If nothing else, it will help them remember you when they're looking through a huge stack of applications.

 Just keep you options open at this point.  It's always better to have applied to more places than you needed, even though it is kind of a pain, than to not have any options that you like.  If you end up getting inundated with interview offers (which was definitely not the case for me), you can always turn them down. 

 -Heather

 P.S.  Some advice from a reluctant Wisconsinite-- enjoy Hawaii while you can!  :-)"

  

Some things to consider about which med schools to apply to

If you're stressed out about your future and where to go to medical school (much less get accepted) you are not alone.  Many there are many qualified applicants to Medical School yet fewer than half ever matriculate.  The good news for you is there are 4 paths one can take to become a Doctor.

1. Probably the best way if you can pull it off is to get accepted into an American allopathic (MD) school.  Things to take into account is they are harder to get into, you need a relatively high GPA and MCAT (your GPA or MCAT alone can't get you in but it can keep you out.)  The state school to which you are a resident is your best bet, state schools guarantee the majority of their positions to their state's residents and this is because the state is investing into their best interest by subsidizing your education with the hope you stick around to practice.  Private schools have a higher tuition  but they offer the same level of competitiveness.  What makes Harvard or Stanford so great isn't because the school's name will get you into that competitive residency (it can't)but rather the scores you will receive on your USMLE's  from being surrounded by the best and brightest students and faculty will likely be higher but in reality no matter where you go you it is ultimately up to you to do well on the USMLE's
2. An option that is growing in popularity is Osteopathic medical Schools (DO).  These schools get you licensed to be a physician and you can go into any specialization (but they do draw in more general practice) as long as you do well.  Traditionally there had been two barriers that kept osteopathic medicine from being seen as equals to allopaths; the first being they aren't as well known (although this has changed significantly over the past decade and well known physicians such as Dr.90210 are DO's) the second thing that held them back was that they are a little more liberal in their teaching (many still teach manipulation yet few go onto use that 'chiropractor stuff' in their own practice.) This has changed as the Allopathic symptomatic approach met the osteopathic holistic approach somewhere in the middle.  Some DO schools actually blend with MD schools in some of their clinical classes and hospital rotations and entirely in residency programs.  The good thing about DO programs is they you can get in with a lower GPA or MCAT than most allopathic schools because they focus more on the big picture and the applicant being well rounded.
3. Caribbean Medical Schools are growing in populrity and reputation.  The Big 3 are Saint George's, Ross, and American University of the Caribbean but there are others like University of Health and Medical Sciences St. Kitts which are good.  Some reputable Caribbean schools can have USMLE pass rates comparable to allopathic medical schools which is amazing since they typically are full of students who got rejected from US allopathic schools.  Many accept student 3 times a year and do the first 4 semesters year round making it possible to graduate faster.  One other thing to note is that most of these programs send you out to an affiliated hospital (often from another Allopathic medical school) to do your clinical training (also known as hospital rotations which lasts about 2 years.)
4. The 4th route is if you're not accepted find something meaningful to do that will strengthen you as a medical school candidate.  Drexel and Columbia university are schools in which have programs tailored to this, they are shorter than most masters programs usually a year, give you a chance to take a class or 2 with medical students and really are directed at getting higher MCAT score.  It isn't necessary to get a masters if that not something you want you don't even need to go to school (although it might be helpful for keeping you conditioned to the learning environment for when you get in).  Jobs in which you are paid to administer health care or conduct research are helpful and you may find something more suited to you doing this.  There are places you can get your EMT certification in as little as 3 months.  
   

Now if you're lucky enough to get accepted to multiple schools there are several factors to take into consideration.  You should find answers to the following questions: Am I a good fit here (family environment, church, feel of campus, climate,etc)?, Will my spouse survive here?, What is the USMLE pass rate?, What residencies are graduates entering into?, What do the graduates have to say about their Alma mater, etc.

When applying to medical school its important to do some research as to whether or not you have a legitimate chance of getting in.  These schools charge you to apply and they charge even more to send in a secondary application, so if you're applying outside your state of residence and they only accept 3 out of state students maybe its a waste of time and money into the application process.  If you're set on getting into a limited number of schools have a back up plan in case you don't get accepted.  If getting in is all that matters to you apply to schools you would want to get into, as well as some that you think you will get into (putting more lines in the water increases the chances of getting a bite). Don't get overly intimidated about the averages (some people get in with higher and lower scores),  make sure you have something to offer you might be surprised but sometimes you don't have to be the best just the best fit and good enough everywhere else to get accepted.  Some schools such as the University of Utah consider every applicant with a 3.0 and above as a possible student and the MCAT and GPA only play 20% into what they're looking at, in fact when you land your interview the interviewers don't see your scores instead they look at personal statements and make sure you're well rounded.  You may be asked questions totally unrelated to medicine such as: why are poor people poor?  or What do you think about the crisis in Darfur? Getting into Medical school doesn't only depend on your GPA, MCAT, extra curriculars, and service hours Medicine is looking for well rounded physicians who are not only competent but posses the social skills, compassion, and understanding to truly help others.

Q&A with a 3rd year Med Student

Casey Lythgoe is a third year Medical Student at Medical College of Wisconsin, which was formally associated with Marquette, it is a private Allopathic (MD) school with a good reputation (ranked #52 top medical school by U.S. News and World Report). Casey (soon to be Dr. Lythgoe) graduated from BYUH in 2004 and sympathizes with us seeing how we don't currently have a pre-med adviser.

Q-How did you decide which schools to apply to?

A- I applied broadly: to my state school and every other private school out there who accepts a significant number of students from out of state. My MCAT wasn't the best (28) so I hoped to get lucky by applying everywhere.

Q-Besides the obvious GPA and MCAT what other things can improve yourodds of getting into med school?
A-Go get some experience in health care. I know this is easier said than done: I volunteered at the hospital in my hometown of Ogden UT. I tried anything to get to speak with and hang out with surgeons. I got lucky a couple of times and saw some operative procedures. Try to get as much of this type of experience as possible. Sure you may be able to get paid as a CNA, but wiping people's butts doesn't really tell you what being a doctor is like, you need to hang with the docs to get a feel for what they do.

Q-Is it possible to mitigate a low GPA or MCAT and still get into school? have you heard of anybody getting in despite one of these strikes against them? and what did they do to draw attention away from the negative aspects of their application? (basically is it possible to redeem yourself? and How?)
A-I believe so, and many of my classmates with sub-30 MCATs would agree. I had a relatively high GPA at 3.85 or so, and I think that counterbalanced my relatively low MCAT of 28. Get some research experience to help out your application. If you live near a major university during the summer, many scientists will have projects that you can do if you are willing to volunteer your time, who knows you might even get published! Again volunteer in health care related activities, and this will offset some of the more negative aspects of your application. Recently, we had a guy come through interviews with great grades and a 36 on the MCAT with no research, no health care experience. It was easy to reject this candidate. Being well rounded can make up for other faults in your application.

Q-What information did you find most useful in getting accepted into medical school?
A-Unfortunately, I had no advisor either and turned to websites like studentdoctor.net for advice. If you have been to the website, you'll find that the advice is poor and the company is worse. Each person's experience will be different, but I can offer mine as an example in context for anyone who wants to pick my brain. See some of my comments below.

Q-What would you have done differently knowing what you know now about the admissions process?
A-I would have studied harder for the MCAT and taken practice tests that are RECENT and UP TO DATE. As many tests as possible, is the advice I can give you. Also, I wouldn't try to be a superstar when it comes to admissions essays: you're likely not a Pulitzer prize winning author so don't try to be. Just be yourself. Explain why you want to be a doc, usually without saying "I want to help people" EVERYBODY says that and no one in admissions believes it unless you have a really credible story. I wanted to be a doc because I love how surgeons can open a person, remove something that has gone wrong, sew the person up, and the patient is better off for it, THAT is AMAZING! It less to do with helping people as it does my fascination with the science of medicine. It is OKAY to love medicine. Yes, you will help people, but that doesn't have to be your main concern. Social workers help people all day, so why do you want to be a doc and help people. Oh, yes, and apply early! Enough said.

Q-What does MCW look for in the application/interview process?
A-See my post above. Be well rounded. Know what you're getting into. Study hard and do well in all your courses.

Q-What was the best way to study for the MCAT? (group study, Kaplan,flashcards,etc)
A-I'm probably not the best person to ask about this considering my MCAT score. I studied alone and used some out of date practice tests. I set up a study schedule according to the list of topics to be covered by the MCAT. I believe this list is somewhere on the AAMCAS or AAMC website. I gave myself a month to do practice tests, and would time myself with the same watch I used in the test. Go back and review the ones you got wrong and take another test. I didn't find it necessary to do a full practice test: the day of the MCAT you'll be so hopped up on adrenaline, that the time will fly. Don't worry about preparing yourself for the "marathon" like aspects of the MCAT. Some guys used kaplan: one scored better than I did, two scored worse. I was good at setting apart time to study every day and sticking to it. Ultimately, each person studies differently and each must decide which approach will work best for them. Remember that understanding a concept is different from knowing it cold!

Q-Does your major(and minor if you have one) count in choosing who gets into med school? (There is a sacrifice of GPA to take harder more challenging courses relevant to medicine rather than taking the bare minimum requirements and filling your schedule with fluff)
A-Again, most schools take into account the whole picture. I was a biochem major. I have a buddy who was an English major. Whatever you do, do it well. Taking courses that are relevant to medicine is irrelevant ironically. You'll find that in your first year of med school, you will breeze through everything you learned in 1 year of biochem in 4 months, less depth in some areas, more depth in others, and a completely different emphasis: you may have studied DNA but do you have any idea what a patient with xeroderma pigmentosa looks like? You may have taken a course in anatomy, but again the focus is different in med school: I had NEVER taken an anatomy course in my life and felt very comfortable in anatomy and received very high scores on all my tests. Once again, take courses you are interested in and courses that will prepare you for the MCAT, and enjoy both of them. Don't worry about whether they are fluff if you enjoy it and can talk about it in an interview, it's worth its weight in gold.

Q-Is there any other advice you would give to an undergrad student interested in becoming a doctor?
A-Now that's a broad question...I love what I do every day. Sometimes it is meaning less scut work. I like that a lot less. Sometimes I get to be first assist on an inguinal hernia and do all the dissection down to the inguinal ligament, or use the bovie during a lumpectomy. If you are excited about medicine now, just wait until you have a part in actually doing it. If you're married prepare your spouse now for the rigors of medical school. Some days I come home after 12 hours of work and spend the rest of the night studying. Some rotations I hardly study at all, but largely it is a lot of time put in to do well. I might also advise you to live your life to the fullest while you have the time. Not only for the fun you'll have, but so that you can tell your attendings in school about the different life experiences you've had. I was surprised to meet so many people that had not stopped going to school since they started high school. Never been out of the country, never did anything different etc. Of course, they still got accepted to med school, but again I believe in being well rounded.

Hwy Service Project Feb28 @ 8AM

Dave has put together a joint service project with Tahitian club scheduled for February 28th (that's a Saturday so none of you have classes) at 8:00AM. We will be cleaning a 1 mile section of highway alongside Turtle Bay, and if serving the community which so graciously allows us to live and study here on the North shore isn't enough there are other incentives such as T-shirts for those who show up to put in some work as well as the possibility of the Restaurant OLA providing breakfast. To remain a club here at BYU Hawaii we need atleast 30% of our club members to participate in this service opportunity.
It may seem like something small but chances are in the course of the application process to the medical/graduate schools you will be applying to questions might be asked concerning your involvement in extra curricular activities/clubs and how you have served your community. If you haven't already keep track of all your service hours, it looks good to show commitment to service not only to medicine but to your community as well.

If you are interested in attending and receiving a t-shirt contact Dave at: thedddaaavvveee@gmail.com by Friday Fed13th and make sure to let him know your shirt size. The order must go out by the end of the week.

Foodfest Winter 09'

A special thanks goes out to all who went out and supported our club as well as those who made the event happen. This is the 2nd foodfest the club has participated in and it takes a lot of work to put everything together. We served some fine Italian cuisine as seen in the pictures below and it must have been a hit because we completely sold out everything without resorting to dropping our prices.

"...when the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie....."(we actually had this song playing nonstop for the duration of foodfest, Grazie! to Higgy for providing the music, it really put us in the Italian mood.)

more pictures of foodfest

What does it take to become a doctor

The University of Washington every year puts on a series of lectures designed for undergraduate students and the community about medical school along with the problems in health care, innovations, and what it takes to become a doctor. I don't want to sound biased but the University of Washington ranks in the top 5 medical schools in America ever year and serves the WWAMI region (Washington, Wyoming, Alaska, Montana, and Idaho all considered "in state" in applying for UW medical school)

These lectures are a great resource to all considering medical school, you will get some insight that you might consider especially useful in personal statements and interviews along with your own convictions about attending medical school. Everyone knows to get a good GPA and do well on the MCAT but it is also important to learn everything you can about the field of medicine and thanks to technology you don't have to commute to Seattle to watch these lectures, so take advantage of it and find some time to watch some episodes via the web. Here's a description along with a link to watch one of the sessions in which I attended and found particularly insightful and inspiring. But feel free to browse around other lectures in the series for something that interests you http://uwmedicine.washington.edu/Global/NewsAndEvents/minimed/Mini-Medical+School+Series+Video+Archive.htm.

"Exactly what does it take to get into medical school? Dr. Terry Mengert takes you through the history of teaching medicine, from Hippocrates to modern day. Aside from highlighting the training today's new doctors receive, Dr. Mengert interviews two students about the challenges and joys of medical school. 'The Colleges', a program which focuses on teaching patient communication at the bedside, is also featured. "

http://researchchannel.org/prog/displayevent.aspx?rID=4084&fID=345